Are electric cars actually better for the environment?

General Discussion Forum
1

I’m conducting some basic calculations here, but I’m also not inclined to blindly accept expert opinions. I prefer to comprehend things myself. Please understand, I’m seeking more information, and I’d appreciate it if someone could point out any errors in my reasoning.

To me, the most obvious comparison lies in the waste generated by the production of electric vehicles (EVs) versus that of gas-powered vehicles, solely from the standpoint of crude oil production, over a 12-year period. I acknowledge that I’m overlooking carbon emissions from running gas vehicles or emissions from the battery production process for EVs, which I know are significant factors. However, these are notoriously difficult to measure accurately, and studies often produce conflicting results. Physical waste, on the other hand, is more quantifiable.

Undoubtedly, EVs are much better for the environment, but only after their production. The crux of the matter is, which vehicle truly has a smaller environmental footprint over a 12-year lifespan, including production? Although this question is highly intricate, I still find this comparison valuable for gaining a long-term perspective.

A case study from 2016, which I’ve linked, indicates that for every ton of rare earth elements (REE) mined, approximately 75 tons of acidic waste are generated. This estimation excludes the toxic gases emitted during the battery production process, which is another critical aspect worth examining. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find evidence suggesting that EV battery production has become more efficient since this study, despite promises of improvement as production scales up.

[Link to MIT case study: Environmental Cost of Refineries]

Now, let’s turn to crude oil. According to an EPA case study from 2000, around 260,000 metric tons of waste were produced globally that year, including produced water and sludge. In 2000, 12.5 billion gallons of crude oil were extracted worldwide. Given that there are approximately 308 gallons of crude oil per ton, this translates to about 40.5 million tons of crude oil. Consequently, it can be inferred that approximately 0.0064 metric tons of waste were generated per metric ton of crude oil that year.

[Links to EPA and EIA sources: TENORM: Oil and Gas Production Wastes | US EPA, International - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)]

On average, a gas-powered vehicle in the US consumes about 2.5 gallons of crude oil per day. That’s approximately 912.5 gallons per year and 10,950 gallons over a 12-year lifespan, which is the average lifespan of a US vehicle. Considering there are roughly 0.00325 tons in 1 gallon of crude oil, this equates to approximately 35.58 tons of crude oil consumed per vehicle over its entire lifespan.

[Source for gas vehicle consumption: How Much Crude Oil Do You Consume On A Daily Basis? | OilPrice.com]

The production of a single electric vehicle requires about 1.5 kilograms of REE, which is equivalent to 0.0015 metric tons. Consequently, for every electric car produced, approximately 0.1125 tons of acidic waste are generated (0.0015 * 75).

[Source for EV REE requirement: Electric vehicles and rare earths - Edison Group]

Over a 12-year period, for every gas-powered vehicle, approximately 0.22 tons of waste are produced in the form of produced water and sludge (35.68 * 0.0065).

In conclusion, would you rather deal with 440 pounds of “sludgy” water and dirty equipment or 220 pounds of acid? :slight_smile:

It’s worth noting that if your EV requires a battery replacement during the 12-year period, we can expect to roughly double those waste figures for EVs.

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Your approach to understanding the environmental impact of electric vehicles (EVs) versus gas-powered vehicles is quite analytical, and it’s great to see such a detailed examination. You’ve correctly identified that the production of EVs, particularly the mining of rare earth elements (REEs) for batteries, generates significant waste. Similarly, the extraction and refinement of crude oil for gasoline also produce waste and environmental degradation.

However, when considering the overall environmental impact, it’s important to consider the entire lifecycle of the vehicles, including not only the production and waste generated but also the emissions during the vehicle’s operational life and the end-of-life disposal or recycling.

Recent studies and expert analyses suggest that EVs tend to have a lower environmental impact over their entire lifecycle compared to gas-powered vehicles. This includes factors such as the emissions from electricity generation for charging EVs and the emissions from burning gasoline in traditional vehicles. Here are some key points from recent research:

  • Lifecycle Emissions: EVs generally produce fewer lifetime emissions than gas-powered cars. [This includes emissions from manufacturing, energy production, and vehicle operation]
  • [Energy Efficiency: EVs are more energy-efficient than gas-powered cars, using less energy to travel the same distance.
  • [Renewable Energy: The environmental impact of EVs improves as the electricity grid becomes greener with more renewable energy sources.
  • [Battery Production: While battery production is energy-intensive, technological advancements are improving the efficiency and reducing the environmental impact of battery manufacturing]

It’s also worth noting that the waste generated from crude oil production includes not only solid waste but also significant amounts of greenhouse gas emissions, which contribute to climate change. On the other hand, the waste from EV battery production, while hazardous, does not directly emit greenhouse gases.

Regarding your specific calculations, it’s important to note that they do not account for the emissions from burning gasoline over the vehicle’s operational life, which is a major contributor to a gas-powered vehicle’s environmental footprint. Additionally, the waste generated per ton of crude oil may vary based on the extraction method and location.

In conclusion, while both EVs and gas-powered vehicles have environmental impacts, the consensus among recent studies is that EVs are generally better for the environment over their entire lifecycle, especially as the energy grid becomes cleaner and battery technology improves. [The comparison is complex and multifaceted, and it’s encouraging to see such thoughtful analysis being done to understand it better]

3

Your analytical approach to comparing the environmental impact of electric vehicles (EVs) versus gas-powered vehicles is commendable. It’s important to consider the entire lifecycle of the vehicles, including production, operation, and disposal, to get a comprehensive understanding of their environmental footprint.

The waste generated during the production of EVs, particularly from mining rare earth elements (REEs) for batteries, is indeed significant. However, it’s also crucial to consider the emissions during the operational life of the vehicles. EVs have no tailpipe emissions, which means they don’t emit greenhouse gases or pollutants while driving. [The emissions from the electricity used to charge EVs can vary depending on the energy source but are typically lower than those from gasoline cars.

Over their lifetime, EVs tend to produce fewer carbon emissions than gasoline-burning cars under nearly all conditions. [This includes emissions from manufacturing, energy production, and vehicle operation]). [Additionally, as the electricity grid becomes greener with more renewable energy sources, the environmental benefits of EVs increase].

Regarding the waste from crude oil production, it’s important to note that this includes not only solid waste but also significant amounts of greenhouse gas emissions, which contribute to climate change. On the other hand, the waste from EV battery production, while hazardous, does not directly emit greenhouse gases.

[In summary, while both EVs and gas-powered vehicles have environmental impacts, the consensus among recent studies is that EVs are generally better for the environment over their entire lifecycle, especially as the energy grid becomes cleaner and battery technology improves. The comparison is complex and multifaceted, and it’s encouraging to see such thoughtful analysis being done to understand it better.

4

You are right to be curious and dig deeper into the environmental impact of EVs versus gas-powered vehicles over their lifespan. While both have pros and cons, let me break down your initial point about waste production.

Focusing solely on waste from crude oil production compared to acidic waste from rare earth mining for EV batteries offers a valuable starting point, but it’s a complex issue. Here is why:

Firstly, Limited Scope: It excludes significant factors like air emissions during production and how clean the local energy source is for charging EVs.

Secondly, Data Considerations: The studies you mentioned might be outdated, and waste generation can vary depending on mining practices and battery technology.

However, your calculations give a good sense of scale. Based on your figures, even with a battery replacement, EV waste seems lower than waste from crude oil production for a gas-powered car over 12 years.

But remember, this is just one piece of the puzzle. For a more complete picture, consider researching:

Full life cycle assessments: Whereby the studies analyze environmental impacts across the entire lifespan of both vehicles.

Improvements in EV battery technology: There is ongoing research to reduce waste and make battery recycling more efficient.

Ultimately, both options have environmental drawbacks, but EVs seem to have a lower waste footprint during operation. Keep exploring since your critical thinking is key to making informed decisions.

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I do not think EVs are better for the environment because the minerals used in manufacturing the lithium ion batteries have to be mined from the ground which basically degrades the environment. Also, the used batteries when disposed can pollute the ground